Reader comments: Ancient Greece offers modern-day lesson
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Guy | 8:42 a.m. Sept. 30, 2007
The concerns addressed in this article are a result of our failure to teach history. As more and more of us fail to understand our history and where we came from more and more of us will be culturally confused. We MUST teach, and instill a love of, history in our schools so that our children know how and why western culture came about. Perhaps more important so they know how and why America came to be.
James | 9:43 a.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Another well written essay by Joe Cannon.
And Victor Hansen has had many great observations, some quite controversial, to include on the subject of immigration.
What should be discussed is the concept of Americanism (term to reference our Western, Greek culture - evidenced in our system of government and expectation) and our current policies.
How we devolved so much into materialism that our policies of unlimited debt are a problem? What about our foreign policy: perceived as spreading democracy though in a very undemocratic manner. Many countries with a similar western civilized background see it is naked imperialism.
Fine thought but how would we interpret this into our current policies?
And Victor Hansen has had many great observations, some quite controversial, to include on the subject of immigration.
What should be discussed is the concept of Americanism (term to reference our Western, Greek culture - evidenced in our system of government and expectation) and our current policies.
How we devolved so much into materialism that our policies of unlimited debt are a problem? What about our foreign policy: perceived as spreading democracy though in a very undemocratic manner. Many countries with a similar western civilized background see it is naked imperialism.
Fine thought but how would we interpret this into our current policies?
Comments continue below
Education in ancient Greece | 10:55 a.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Check out the book: Market Education by Andrew Coulson - talks about the different Greek education systems- Athens vs Sparta and the outcomes. Not surprisingly, Athens, with more parental control and choices, has better outcomes.
Trevor | 11:43 a.m. Sept. 30, 2007
I would challenge Cannon to try writing about anything other than his own values. Here's a suggestion for our editor friend: important currant events.
Steve | 11:54 a.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Cannon's fascination with neoconservative writers continues unabated. Victor Davis Hanson, while a noted historian, is also an outspoken defender of the idea that America has responsibility for facilitating the spread of western ideals through whatever means, military force being one of his favorites. That's why he's such a strong supporter of war in the Middle East. It's America's duty, he asserts, to "civilize" that area, even if it has to be done by force. It appears to be Cannon's self-imposed duty to provide an outlet for neoconservative ideas in the Deseret Morning News.
1776 | 12:22 p.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Understanding history allows for better understanding of current events in context. In other words, the element of wisdom is interjected into the analysis.
I pay close attention to current events and, working more than fulltime and participating in the community for the common good, am an amatuer student of history. As a concerned citizen, my conclusion was identical to the study Mr Cannon comments on.
The real cause for alarm is the attitude of the upcoming generation. People say things about Western Culture, and America in particular, that shock me. Not with thought provoking sagacity, but with venomous, irrational hate. They define our nation by its mistakes. Shaping moments in history, to them, are not triumphs of courage and resourcefulness, but mere luck aided by rapacious ruthlessness. Pop culture, the tutor of the upcoming generation, buys that lie hook, line, and sinker along with so-called academia. The masses are being indoctrinated in cultural suicide. When they realize they’ve been instructed to tie the noose around their own necks, it’s likely to be too late. And after the next dark age the next round of ungrateful dupes will ignore our stupidity and do the same things.
I pay close attention to current events and, working more than fulltime and participating in the community for the common good, am an amatuer student of history. As a concerned citizen, my conclusion was identical to the study Mr Cannon comments on.
The real cause for alarm is the attitude of the upcoming generation. People say things about Western Culture, and America in particular, that shock me. Not with thought provoking sagacity, but with venomous, irrational hate. They define our nation by its mistakes. Shaping moments in history, to them, are not triumphs of courage and resourcefulness, but mere luck aided by rapacious ruthlessness. Pop culture, the tutor of the upcoming generation, buys that lie hook, line, and sinker along with so-called academia. The masses are being indoctrinated in cultural suicide. When they realize they’ve been instructed to tie the noose around their own necks, it’s likely to be too late. And after the next dark age the next round of ungrateful dupes will ignore our stupidity and do the same things.
nonceleb | 12:56 p.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Cannon's editorials touting the moral superiority of God fearing societies and individuals is getting a little tiresome. I am a history teacher and it was religion, the monopoly of Catholicism, which plunged the West into a Dark Ages in the first place. It lasted over a thousand years, ending only with the Renaissance, Reformation and later the Enlightenment. Unfortunately, radical Islam is still stuck in the 7th Century. Fundamentalist religion has resisted and fought against scientific knowledge, ending discrimination and social progress, throughout history. It was used to defend treating women as property and the institution of slavery. Resistance is still evident today with stem cell research, the right to die with dignity, equal rights for gays and the theory of evolution. The supposed Satanic evil, secular humanism, has never committed atrocities such as the Inquisition, the Crusades, pogroms, witch hunts, ethnic cleansing, suicide bombings, terrorist acts and sectarian wars.
And there have been agnostic civilizations. There is no God in Shinto (Japan), Taoism and Confucianism (China) and Buddhism (Southeast Asia). And in general, throughout history, the Far East has had far less crime, violence and war than God fearing Western Civilization.
nonceleb
And there have been agnostic civilizations. There is no God in Shinto (Japan), Taoism and Confucianism (China) and Buddhism (Southeast Asia). And in general, throughout history, the Far East has had far less crime, violence and war than God fearing Western Civilization.
nonceleb
Jim III | 1:42 p.m. Sept. 30, 2007
WOW!! I wonder where nonceleb has been lately. I guess that I am fortunate that I was never a student of his. I would challenging him on a lot his facts.
The one thing that I cannot argue with is the fact that the Dark ages existed. The exact cause may not have been just been the Catholic Church. Other factors were involved.
The largest loss of life in the last century was caused by WWII. Germany, Russia and Japan (the emperor was the god) were not ruled by religious rulers. The estimated death toll by those three stands around 50 million.
Stalin and his cronies could be considered secular humanists. They did not believe in a god. Hitler and his bunch considered themselves the "master race". The Japanese thought themselves as superior to anyone else on their side of the world.
Mao and his followers were secularists also.
We do not know how many died after Mao came to power
around 1947.
As for the Far East having less crime, violence and war, is a myth. It just has not been reported as much as what it is in the West.
The one thing that I cannot argue with is the fact that the Dark ages existed. The exact cause may not have been just been the Catholic Church. Other factors were involved.
The largest loss of life in the last century was caused by WWII. Germany, Russia and Japan (the emperor was the god) were not ruled by religious rulers. The estimated death toll by those three stands around 50 million.
Stalin and his cronies could be considered secular humanists. They did not believe in a god. Hitler and his bunch considered themselves the "master race". The Japanese thought themselves as superior to anyone else on their side of the world.
Mao and his followers were secularists also.
We do not know how many died after Mao came to power
around 1947.
As for the Far East having less crime, violence and war, is a myth. It just has not been reported as much as what it is in the West.
CB | 1:58 p.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Thanks nonceleb, you just proved 1776's point.
Thank you Joe for bringing to our attention the current thoughts of the day. Fortunately when I went to school I was taught to think for myself, but that was pre-60's
and NEA, allowing me a more willingness to consider, understand and, if needed, tolerate all sides of an issue. CB
Thank you Joe for bringing to our attention the current thoughts of the day. Fortunately when I went to school I was taught to think for myself, but that was pre-60's
and NEA, allowing me a more willingness to consider, understand and, if needed, tolerate all sides of an issue. CB
Mark | 7:52 p.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Nonceleb,
I'm a history teacher also (public school). And I am unhappy with your analysis of the effects of Christianity.
Catholicism the cause of a cultural decline? The Catholic church, particularly the monasteries, served as the repositories that saved the art and writings of early western civilization while the Barbarians, Vikings, Magyars and Arabs were raiding and nearly destroying what was left of European civilization from the 4th through the 11th centuries. The Catholic church built the cathedrals of Europe, and inspired and paid for much of the art of the Renaissance. (David? Pieta?) Many Catholic figures, such as St. Francis of Assisi, combated violence and intolerance.
Yes, the Crusades and the Reformation turned violent, NOT because Christianity was the root cause, but that princes and leaders were willing to use religion as the pretext for war. The real reasons for these wars were lust for power and greed. These attributes are hardly limited to Christians, but are aspects of the human condition, as you well know.
I'd tackle your analysis of Eastern religions and promotion of secularism, but I'm out of space...
Shalom!
I'm a history teacher also (public school). And I am unhappy with your analysis of the effects of Christianity.
Catholicism the cause of a cultural decline? The Catholic church, particularly the monasteries, served as the repositories that saved the art and writings of early western civilization while the Barbarians, Vikings, Magyars and Arabs were raiding and nearly destroying what was left of European civilization from the 4th through the 11th centuries. The Catholic church built the cathedrals of Europe, and inspired and paid for much of the art of the Renaissance. (David? Pieta?) Many Catholic figures, such as St. Francis of Assisi, combated violence and intolerance.
Yes, the Crusades and the Reformation turned violent, NOT because Christianity was the root cause, but that princes and leaders were willing to use religion as the pretext for war. The real reasons for these wars were lust for power and greed. These attributes are hardly limited to Christians, but are aspects of the human condition, as you well know.
I'd tackle your analysis of Eastern religions and promotion of secularism, but I'm out of space...
Shalom!
Mark B | 10:02 p.m. Sept. 30, 2007
Is CB saying that the 1950s was an era of great intellectual tolerance and "thinking for yourself"? I can't agree.
I wonder what Hansen and Cannon want from us? We already have a society that combines a kind of surface piety with the "whatever it takes" strand of capitalism that daily proves its willingness to do about anything that adds to the corporate bottom line. This latter tendency is joined at the hip to our national government's apparent agenda, backing the Dylan line that "you've got to serve somebody". Even troops sent to rescue Katrina survivors did so with bayonets fixed, warning locals against the ultimate sin - looting. The President, citing the expense, promises a veto of health care expansion for children with an additional cost of about what we spend in Iraq each week. And he'll make it stick, because children don't vote, and we love those tax cuts.
I wonder what Hansen and Cannon want from us? We already have a society that combines a kind of surface piety with the "whatever it takes" strand of capitalism that daily proves its willingness to do about anything that adds to the corporate bottom line. This latter tendency is joined at the hip to our national government's apparent agenda, backing the Dylan line that "you've got to serve somebody". Even troops sent to rescue Katrina survivors did so with bayonets fixed, warning locals against the ultimate sin - looting. The President, citing the expense, promises a veto of health care expansion for children with an additional cost of about what we spend in Iraq each week. And he'll make it stick, because children don't vote, and we love those tax cuts.
MH | 7:48 a.m. Oct. 2, 2007
Hey Mr Cannon,
If you're going to quote something from the National Review, then why not use the full name of the magazine? Abbreviating it to "NR Online" suggests you are surreptitiously trying to hide the fact you are quoting from a far right magazine. Maybe that game plays well with Des News subscribers who are too obtuse to notice, but to anyone else your coy game is obvious. The right likes to harp on "intellectual honesty," so why don't you practice some yourself.
If you're going to quote something from the National Review, then why not use the full name of the magazine? Abbreviating it to "NR Online" suggests you are surreptitiously trying to hide the fact you are quoting from a far right magazine. Maybe that game plays well with Des News subscribers who are too obtuse to notice, but to anyone else your coy game is obvious. The right likes to harp on "intellectual honesty," so why don't you practice some yourself.
Shelly (NOLA) | 2:49 p.m. March 11, 2008
I think that it is appalling that people in the "civilized world" do not agree with Hanson's views. HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF!!! AMERICA will fall! The man is a genius and I wish that human beings were not so ignorant. This man should be PRESIDENT!!!!
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Who thinks that? Not those who realize that greed and ego are destroying our way of life. What Cannon doesn't seem to realize is that our actions to destroy the environment (based on personal wealth and the reluctance to give it up for the common good) is part of the problem.