Is this really news to everyone in the intermountain west? Being considered "not quite first-class citizens" is nothing new to those of us who live where the church is very much in the minority. Here in the Bible Belt, it is a way of life to watch our children suffer persecutions because of their standards. Seeking understanding has been by one classmate at a time, one teacher at a time, one neighbor at a time, and on and on. Slowly, through the good examples of my children, there are people out in our community who have learned that Latter-Day Saints are not the polygamist weirdos that their preachers have told them we are. Being understood and respected will continue to be a work in progress, and the converts will keep coming regardless.

I appreciate Mr. Bushman's urging for Latter-day Saints to seed understanding. All mankind should do so, including all Mormons. Having said that, Mormons also have a mandate from the Lord (via modern-day scripture and prophetic utterings) to preach the gospel (as revealed to Joseph Smith) to all the world. The natural and expected result of this preaching is to obtain converts who will follow Jesus and obey His commandments. Importantly, eternal negative consequences are mentioned in the scriptures if the Mormons don't follow through with their mandate and as it were, "Hide their light under a bushel."

To Starla: You are absolutely right; when the broader world really understands mormonism, it will be because it happened one friend, teacher, neighbor, etc. at a time, and conversion isn't necessary for them to understand and respect what we believe.

To Have to do both: What Dr. Bushman is trying to say is that by doing one (explaining without intent to convert), the second will happen naturally, and automatically (more people will become interested in the gospel). Yes, we do have to do both, but lets put step 1 before step 2.

Dr. Bushman has done more to elevate the standing of the church in the eyes of our neighbors and colleagues than any latter-day saing alive today. I would highly recommend listening to his suggestion, as I have found that principle to be absolutely true in my professional relationships and friendships.

As a Mormon that grew up in the East and now lives in Utah; I can say that I've never experienced "persecution." Sure, I've run into a few anti-Mormons, but every religion has people that disagree with its tenets. Perhaps we LDS should stop playing the "victim role" so much and realize that there isn't an "extermination order" anymore. Most non-Mormons really don't care about the LDS church.

Are you kidding? Get on Google and try searching for anti-mormon websites and then search for websites bashing any other religion. I'll bet there are more anti-mormon websites than anti-islam websites. To think that persecution comes only first hand is just obtuse.

I repectfully disagree with Bro. Bushman.

Our Temples are NOT secret. Anyone who applies him/herself can enter. We just don't talk about it because it IS sacred.

Evangelicals hate Mormon but not liberal intellectuals. Liberal intellectuals just don't believe us. Just as they don't believe other religions.

I disagree that we just need more time to allow folks to mellow toward us. Bro. Bushman needs to read 1Nephi: Chapters 13 and 14. The OTHER church is not going to get to liking us. Quite the contrary.

We need to step up our efforts in conversion.

To Brooks W. Wilson,

I say we take some time to ponder Bushman's message before forming an opinion. While were doing that perhaps we can step up our efforts to be more Christ like in our practices and demeanor towards others.

Just a thought...

Some numbers
Current world population: 6.7 billion

World Christian population: 2.2 billion

World population increase per day: 219,000

Net Christian converts per day: 79,000

Fastest-growing Christian population: China with 16,500 per day

Christian martyrs in 2007: 175,000 (or 480 per day)

Christian martyrs in 1970: 377,000 (1,033 per day)

As reported by the International Bulletin of Missionary Research and digested by religion scholar Martin Marty

What in tarnation is a "liberal intellectual"? Someone who believes in federal highways, fed aid to inspect food supplies, fed aid to education, fed military, people being free to be themselves as long as they do not interfere with my freedoms? An intellectual is... someone with an intellect? Someone who can read, write, and do analysis? I am intrigued.

I guess I am a liberal intellectual. Or, I am just a curious person who chooses things based on experience and education, and what is good for me and society? I am lost on that phrase: Liberal Intellectual. It probably is just a fancy way of spelling "Thomas Jefferson."

The Shadow Wonders.

Uh, Thomas Jefferson was far from what you consider a "liberal intellectual" shadow. Read the constitution one more time, just once please. Or perhaps just the bill of rights. The only federal thing that should be happening from which you described is the military.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

That's the constitution, which Mormon's believe is inspired directly by God. Are you saying we shouldn't take it for it's literal translation? Because you, being a liberal intellectual know better. Thomas Jefferson certainly knew different.

Usually those who consider themselves intellectuals usually aren't. Just my take.

liberal intellecutal is an oxy moron. HA HA HA

I think Hugh Nibley, a self-declared "liberal" had a great definition of a "liberal intellectual." Speaking of Nehor has a model of what he called the "liberal paradox" he said:

"The liberal is unpretentions and open-minded, just like everybody else-- yet he forms a jealously guarded clique for the exploitation of the general public, and distinguishes sharply between the intellectual class to which he belongs as a special elite and the layman, who is expected to support him and seek instruction at his feet. ... Nehor the Great Liberal and lover of mankind [who believes in the salvation of all humannkind] lost his temper and killed [Gideon]." (Hugh W. Nibley, An Approach to the Book of Mormon, [3rd ed.; Salt Lake City, UT; Deseret Book and FARMS, 1988] p. 365-365).

There is nothing wrong with being "liberal." There is something very dangerous, as Nibley recognized, in styling oneself as one of the intellectual elite. It is the liberal intellectual "elite" that have a special disdain for Mormonism and its adherents that almost exceeds that of foam-at-the-mouth Evangelical anti-Mormons.

I guess then you respectfully disagree with Elder Ballard and what he said last conference about seeking to explain before seeking to convert. He further went on to state that many latter-day saints need to recognize when people are just curious and when they are interested to learn more. He said that when people are just curious which most are, we need to learn how to explain the basics realizing that their interest is strictly informative only. Many people misunderstand the scriptures as thinking that preaching the gospel requires overzealously trying to force someone to something that they are not ready for. I think that you along with many members have blown certain scriptures out of context.

Not being ashamed of or preaching the gospel does not mean to force it down peoples throats who aren't ready.

I find that these statements by Bushman merely echo a direction that church leadership is encouraging. To have others understand will be much more helpful in missionary efforts than trying at all costs to preach preach preach when people just simply want to be informed.

I'm not sure why Mr. Bushman appears to consider understanding and conversion some sort of dichotomy. In fact, I would expect conversion to only occur as a process of understanding.

I think the fifth of seven principles for effective living articulated by Steven Covey would perhaps be a better way of expressing what is meant here. That is, “Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood.”

That is a principle of living that would benefit everyone.

People are more scared of Islam than of Mormons. I remember when the polls came out that stated what percentage of people in the US would not vote for a Mormon as president. The percentage that would not vote for a Muslim was much, much higher.
As far as liberal intellectuals...they tend to be skeptical of all religions. They certainly don't believe Mormonism is satanic...although they might think it's silly. That being said, some liberal intellectuals are actually LDS. And remember who Massachusetts (filled with liberal intellectuals) voted for for governor a few years back (a Mormon).
It's the religious right who really hates us.
Having lived in the very middle of liberal intellect country (Palo Alto CA), I can honestly say I never felt discriminated against, and I never felt less than first-class.

How would one even begin to verify the "statistics" you cite?

I would be very interested in knowing the method used to obtain those figures.

They look like "guesstimates" to me, and very loose at that.

The 'NO MORE PERSECUTION THAN OTHERS' author posts here often under the guise of an LDS member. You can identify the author by such catch phrases as 'LDS should stop playing the victim role' and 'Most non-Mormons really don't care about the LDS Church'. More times than not the authors catch phrases have little or nothing to do with the article written.

Want to see intolerance? Have non-mormon children in Utah.

Did you know the word "Mormon" shows up 11 times on your website front page?

We get the point. Thanks for bashing it over our heads.

Bye.

It's good advice for Mormons and any other group with missionaries to seek understanding ahead of converts. But you have to watch the attitude shown by "Have to do both". Many of us are not convinced that you or any other group have a "mandate from the Lord". Even if you claim to want understanding, you show from the get-go that you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. Is it any wonder that people close their doors to you and to that sort of superior attitude?

Bro. Bushman is absolutely right. Joseph Smith repeatedly told the missionaries not to talk about tenets but to simply state the message and love people. It's not our job to convince anyone. That's the master persuader's (Satan's) approach. And only the Spirit can truly convince anyway. “While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard." --Joseph Smith

As a nonmember I still find it amusing to read the words of members who feel "persecuted" for their beliefs, and the words of nonmembers who feel "persecuted" because of their nonbeliefs/"outside looking in" status in the community. For those who believe in the mandate to preach the Gospel and to convert those who are non-LDS to the faith, it is like anything else. With most...the more you push it on them the greater the likelihood that they will get ticked off and walk away. Mr. Bushman has the right idea for people of any organized religion as to what to do: Just live your life and be a symbol of what you believe. "If you build it they will come". As to my own faith, it speaks to my heart and soul (Catholicism) and my best friends who are LDS have always encouraged me to live my faith to the best of my ability. Not ONCE have they pushed it on me. Do I feel persecuted? I don't see any stonings here, no mutilations as we have in the Middle East. Get a grip people...we don't know REAL persecution.

A liberal intellectual is a contradiction in terms. Another phrase to help you out would be "a legend in their own minds".

Just trying to help.

I keep seeing these asinine comments from certain "brethern" that evangelicals "hate" Mormons because they are "anti-Mormon." Nothing could be further from the truth!

If a person is "anti-Nazi" does that mean he or she "hates" Germans? If a person is anti-Communism does that mean he or she "hates" Cubans?

Apparently some LDS, actually "most" from what I've heard in similar discussions about the "anti-Mormons," believe their religion is beyond the scrutiny of discussion and discourse.

I would suggest to these folks that they tone down their rhetoric and understand that absolutely "anyone" has the right to disagree with Mormon doctrine.

Disagreeing with Mormon doctrine isn't "hate" people---Mormonism is a highly debatable subject for most inquisitive folks.

What do you call it when one of the primary doctrines of Mormonims calls all other Christian sects or denominations "abominable" in the sight of God?

I'll tell you what it is: Cultic Bigotry; it's "hate" masquerading as the only true church!!

Did you like those comments LDS friends? If those comments offended you, then maybe you ought to go look in the mirror and get that screwed-up self-righteous "holier than thou" look off of your face and love your so-called enemies!

This article's heading implies that Bushman said "seek ... not converts." This misrepresents what Bushman likely said. He undoubtedly believes missionary work is a holy obligation. He is, after all, a believing, committed, devout Latter-day Saint ... has served as a patriarch. Unfortunately, MormonTimes allowed a bad headline to go to press here. Toward the end of the article, it becomes clear that Bushman intended to convey that our efforts need not always include evangelical zeal, need not always lead to conversion for some kind of success to result. This is very much in the same spirit of the late President Hinckley, who is known to have said that the Church needs not only converts but good friends.

I wonder what the context of his statement about temples was. He might have been trying to say that in our efforts to keep temples sacred, we end up talking about them less than we actually could be. i.e. we stretch the sacredness to the point where it really is a secret. Just a thought.

Just a comment on Dr Bushman's purported speech item, where he says, that what goes on in LDS temples is secret, is simply untrue, and he knows it. What goes on in LDS temples is sacred and the specifics of what transpires in them is not to be openly discussed by the qualified members who are admitted to these holy edifices outside of these precincts. They can be spoken of freely inside of these buildings in appropriate conversations. If what he meant by his comments that these matters cannot be spoken of freely outside of the temple, then he is correct. Any member who is unqualified to be granted admittance, or members of other faiths, who are also unqualified to enter dedicated temples are not privy to the ceremonies that occur inside of these sacred edifices. What occurs there in the sacred ceremonies inside temples are pure and simply sacred and are not to be discussed any other place in specific terms.

The Church is to come forth out of obscurity, but not at the expense of removing doctrine. That's just all too bad if those who would "mock" the beginnings of the Church, the plates of Nephi, or Moroni, but "embrace" ... Beliefs (AKA) Standards.

"Our" beliefs Are these ministrations, without them, the Church has no legs to stand on, nor "keystone".

"We" (the Church) is Not in a popularity contest, although you would think that it's members are all too often looking for the "praise of the World" as is more than hinted at in Bushman’s Weber State address.

If you, Mr. Bushman, are so worried about members of the Church being viewed as "second class citizens", then You are more than welcome to stay in the "great and spacious building" that You seem to be touting as the "Preferred".

missionary work and whether someone is going to be baptised is about timing, not talent.

All I can say is if we Mormons would live the Gospel like the Prophet Gordon B Hinkley then I believe our membership would jump over night.

Judy
You live in a dream world. Time to wake up girl. No matter how good a leader may appear to others doesn't mean everyone is going to run out, roll over, jump up & down, roll around on the ground and become a member of the LDS church. Won't happen.

I believe if more of the Utah LDS would spend a few years out in the Bible Belt, you would see for yourselves the way the "Mormons" are looked down on. But like Starla, I have seen all my life the way the Evangelicals look down on the LDS. My neighbors go to churches who have ministers that speak against the LDS church almost every Sunday. They poison the minds of young people. And then the LDS youth are told they are a cult and they are not Christians. And yes, the youth have shown some teachers and friends that they do live good lives and they are great examples of their belief in Christ. I have been so proud of the youth out here that have to go to school everyday and be looked at differently because they are Mormon. I grew up in that atmosphere many years ago and now because of the growth of the church, the other churches are more vocal about our faith and try to keep their members from wanting to know more about the LDS church. We are being persecuted out here. But we will persevere.

To Ken Kickerbocker:

The fact that I see Bro. Bushmans article differently than you doesn't mean I haven't reflected on my view.

Which part of my response do you find "un-Christ-like; quoting the Book of Mormon, saying our Temples are Sacred and not secret (I heard that stated by scores of Church authorities), or paraphrasing President Hinckley's admonition to double the rate of baptism?

In response to "To Brooks."

I believe your response is a non-sequitor. Nothing I said runs counter to what you quoted Brother Ballard saying.

You're playing with semantics. Explaining is an integral and necessary part of converting. That is axiomatic.

In response to your statemen "Not being ashamed of or preaching the gospel does not mean to force it down peoples throats who aren't ready," I never said that nor did anything I said imply that. My statement was "we need to step up our efforts in conversion," is an insiduous theme we hear constantly from our general authorities.

Stepping up our efforts means to look for and take advantage of "missionary opportunities." President Hinckley has told us to double our rate of baptisms. Im sure he wasn't thinking of an overbearing or high pressure approach.

You mormons are crazy, just reading this thread would make a non mormon person think you are weird.

Isn't it nice that we can all chat like this?

Re: What is persecution? | 7:56 a.m. Mar. 8, 2008

As, indicated in the message; its the "International Bulletin of Missionary Research" of missionary work of The Christian Church.....the Universal Church.....all those who declare the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as Jesus reveals in the gospels. This publication began in 1922.
This is not something that you, or your church can judge,...but go ahead and do your own research. The facts are there. Sorry.

To "In SLC": I'm not a Mormon, I'm a devout Catholic. I don't think Mormons are crazy or weird. They seem like pretty normal people to me, but deeply committed to their faith. That's admirable, IMHO. I think our country and the world would be quite a bit better off if we all took our faith as seriously as do LDS members.

Not that we don't have certain disagreements on theology and doctrine--we do. But Mormon faithful and Catholic faithful have a lot in common, and a lot we can teach and learn from one another. And we, along with our faithful Protestant friends, can all be salt and light to a world that needs it!

Yep, it is good Deseret News has these blogs, its downright good therapy for all those people out there who think they have something important or not to say to the world rather it is grumpy grumbles, sarcastic and hateful, nasty and arrogant, and just downright mean. People from all walks of life just need to speak their minds. I find it interesting to read. Thank you, Deseret news. It just makes a better day for all :o)

Well, when you get it straight from the Lord, even in the Bible, let alone the LDS Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon...Christ gives his church the mandate,"preach the gospel to every creature" and it means what it says..and it is direct from Christ himself. I am not going to argue with him about it...JUST DO IT LOVINGLY.

Future?-- are you anti-Mormon? I mean they are promoting something new how else are people going to find that website? I didn't even realize it was a different website until pointed out Mormon was on there so many times. So I investigated. BTW thanks for that now I know there is a website mormontimes.com. I guess I'm just blind to promotion.

Amen to Samhill, Ed, Emma, Truth Sayer

I wouldn't say that it's that they aren't "first class citizens". Completely wrong adjective.

In my case they would be unprepared or inappropriate citizens for the White House. Or perhaps questionable historians and sociologists....

If we want to say that anyone that is not prepared or inappropriate for the White House is second class than apparently we only have 40 something first class citizens in the entire history of this country. I don't think so!

You my not so nice nieghbor, tipify the anti-mormon rhetoric and acceptance. I doubt you even live in Utah county. You are just looking for an argument and if that is what you want sister than I feel sorry for you. We treat people with nothing but repsect and kindness and you are just bothered by something and are trying to blame it on the LDS. I am sorriful for you and hope that whatever offended you is resolved but I know it was the True church of Christ.

Bushman's assertion that temples are secret seems obvious and accurate to me. As a Mormon, I don't find it offensive or demeaning or unfair. Why is it so important to some people to argue that temples are not secret? Help me understand. What button has Bushman pushed?

First, not all Mormons are idiots. In fact, most of us are very well educated and - gasp - most have lived outside of Utah (as I have for the past 20 years in the liberal NW). We also don't believe everything we're told.

Second, not all Non-Mormons hate Mormons. Most that I know are exceptional and actually very supportive of my beliefs. I think I'd disappoint them if I ever betrayed or changed my values.

I think there is a difference between those who do not wish to join the Church and/or find it a little different or just not for them and those who are "anti-Mormon." My guess is "anti-Mormons" are only a fraction of a percent of the population. These are generally unhappy people who are "anti" a lot of things. I find it best just to stay away from them - the same as I would any other person who'd rather tear down than build up. But as I said, these folks are few and far between.

Let's not make our differences bigger than they need to be. As one well known non-Mormon once asked, "Can't we all get along?"

When I was on a mission in 1950-52 we heard that
1 out of every 1500 in the world was LDS.
I remember a few years later being 1 out of every
1250.
And later still 1 out of 1,000, then 1 out of 750
And now in 2008 it is close to one out of 500+.
Being a friend and an example is the best missionary tool.
When friendship is in place an invitation for people to take the lessons is much easier than to immediately invite people to take lessons.
If they show no interest to have the lessons, do not abandon the friendship. Not now does not mean
not ever. I have seen some approached in 1950 join in the 1970's and later.
However, when sincere interest is shown immediately
open your mouth, your home for dinner and for the missionaries.
This works from our expeience for some 58 years.

Its nice once in a while to see a non-LDS member that does not mock, but admires the dedication and faith of the LDS. I am LDS and I admire those of other faiths who uphold their values and do not mock other religions because they know what believing in God is all about, being a better person. I dont care what religion you belong to...if you practice it with as much strength and faith as you should, i think that is one of the most important things. Lets take those people of other faiths and see if we can add a spirit to their lives they dont get from their religion, if they dont want it, it should not be forced. Our actions are our best tool, LEAD BY EXAMPLE!

I wish to take time and to thank you. Reading the backbiting against liberals, shows me that there is no place in your church for me. You notice these incessant mean spirited quips that have become a ubiquitous part of acceptable LDS speech?

You can tell much by a tree by the bitterness of its fruit. so true. It makes little sense discussing theology or doctrine with a culture so stepped in hatred toward you.

I know. Good riddance. The LDS Church does fine without my kind around. You wonder why I see your church lacking in simple Christian values like compassion for others.

Ex Mormon