I find it interesting that the flds strategies for getting their children back does not include forsaking underage marriage. That must be so basic to their belief system that they can't give it up. If they cannot promise and provide homes where that does not occur, Texas should keep the children..

"Some FLDS mothers with nursing babies and toddlers may be unaware that they will be forced to leave their children behind once Texas officials gather the DNA samples from them."

This makes me so sick. How can the state believe that taking a nursing baby away from its mother is not child abuse? This is SO wrong...

And what is wrong with accepting their clothes and other necessaties? Is the state planning on de-programming them from their beliefs?

I am LDS, I do not support poligamy or child abuse, but, there must have been a better way they could have done this.

How can the rest of the American people sit by and allow this to happen to these Women and children??

How can the rest of America sit by and allow old men to force underage girls into illegal polyamous marriage?

@chemist: As reported last week, FLDS mothers have offered to leave the Ranch, get their own accommodations and sign an affidavit that they will not allow / encourage their daughters to marry before they are 18. This has been rejected by the CPS and Texas authorities with the result that those children will now be placed in foster care.

One wonders why all the illegals coming in from Mexico aren't branded with a mark and catalogged in this way. Perhaps they don't want to offend those that will blend in with secular America?

Just remember: nothing CPS does is "illegal". They operate beyond the law, in much the same way anyone reading this is beyond a two-dimension drawing on a piece of paper. They can do whatever they want, and they have an unlimited supply of resources to do it (taxpayer money).

This doesn't sound or "feel" right. How can the rights of all these parents be abrogated over suspicions? I certainly don't agree with anything the FLDS do but they have the right to raise their children without the Gestapo-like tactics that've been employed against them. If there's proof a specific child has been abused, prosecute the case but this situation looks like religious persecution to me. Just my opinion....

Thankfully, the rest of america, texas at least, saw what was happening to these children for what it is. And put a stop to it the only way they could.

Because the rest of America thinks it's about religion and not constitutional rights. This raid and railroading in court is chilling, and if not overturned, this kidnapping of 416 children could go down as one of America's darkest hours.

If will be interesting to see who wins the legal battle, and for you readers whom think I'm FLDS, I'm not, and I do not approve of their lifestyle nor their beliefs, however, the federal and state government's must act in a constitutional and legal manner or this country is no better then a police state!

I think that you use a key word: de-programming. These children have been or will be brainwashed into their religion. No child should be put in that position. I don't care if you are FLDS, Mormon, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or Athiest. No one has the right to indoctrinate their children. That is abuse enough to take these children into protection.

If you ever have had a nursing baby and try to wean that baby before the baby wants to be weaned you may have a struggle getting the baby to feed for a while. Some babies are known to substitute pacifiers and other sucking items for nusrishment and security. I think taking nursing babies from the mothers is child abuse.

How can the rest of America let this cult go under the radar for decades and let them get away with things because of "freedom of religion"

I came here to leave a comment that is exactly what Paula said ... CPS agencies all over the nation are out of control with their abuse of "power" and THEY are the ones who need to be deprogrammed.

Maybe the parents will get their kids back when they learn to tell the truth.

I have to agree with Sarah that Texas CPS is an agency that abuses their unchecked power so much it is scary. They operate outside the law and operate with impunity and immunity.
Do any of you have any idea how many children are molested, battered or killed in Texas CPS protective custody? You should take 5 minutes of your time and find out before you send these poor sacrificial lambs to them.

To re:Paula at7:17

I see that you and I disagree on what are the duties of parents. I have tried to TEACH my children values including what I sincerely believe about religion. I have tried to TEACH them to be good people,to obey the law and to worship GOD as I know him (and as I believe most religions suggest.) I do not call it brainwashing!

On the other hand,I would proabably call you NEGLECTFUL in not TEACHING your children if I understand your posting correctly. It is my opinion that one of the greatest problems that our society faces now is the lack of teaching of young people that you are suggesting. A look at the morning paper or crime statistics will prove that!

We may disagree on what to teach and what we individually believe, but to tell me that a Mormon,Catholic,Jewish or Muslim does not have the right to teach their beliefs to their family should go off to some lonely island somewhere and get out of the United States where I consider this one of our basic CONSTITIUTIONAL RIGHTS. Does anyone agree with me?

PS-I saw lots of "child"brides and arranged marriages in OK&AR !

Underage marriage was not planned when the FLDS relocated to Texas. The age of consent at that time was 14. While I don't approve of 14 year-olds marrying older men, why don't the Texas Rangers and the CPS raid Dallas neighborhoods in which it is common for 14 year olds to be impregnated by older men. Why don't they shut down the Planned Parenthood offices which refuse to identify statutory rape?

The ACLU should consider the civil rights of the 14 year old girls that are being raped by the 50 year old men!

First our government murders hundreds of people in Waco. Now they kidnap and mentally torture hundreds more. Freedom of religion apparently no longer exists in Texas. Are all these people guilty until proven innocent? Isn't that backwards? How is keeping mothers and children apart doing anything to prevent underage marriage? I guess when a government can get away with murder, there really aren't any limits to what it will try.

Here's my question....If the FLDS members aren't allowing anything illegal to go on at their communities, such as plural marriage, or child brides, or abuse of any kind....why are they so secretive and reclusive? Why do they live in remote areas where the rest of the world can't see them?

To AJ: Perhaps after the DNA testing has been done and they know what children belong to what biological mother the CPS will allow what some flds women have proposed. Live outside of the ranch, not allow underage marriage, etc. I wonder if the flds male leaders would allow/encourage/discourage that.
At this time I think is is premature to do that since there seems to be a great deal of confusion on the relationships, caused in part by deceitfullness on the part of some of the flds women.

I don't see why they are punishing the mothers and children. Anone can clearly see that these families love each other and need each other. If they hae found underage marriages, they should prosicute the men. HOWEVER... I seem to recall a little rule that with a parents permission, a child can get married... or was that one wiped out?
It's not the mothers or the childrens faults. This is CRAZINESS! And the call was a hoax! THerefore, carrying on with this madness is religous prosecution!

Want to see these and other cults disappear overnight ?

Make them pay taxes.

it seems the ACLU condones rape, incest, and abuse. they will stop at nothing to find a constitutionality claim for a 13 to 16 year old girls to be raped and abused thus fulfilling their creed of "civil liberties." what a shock.

you can not compare FLDS pregnancy to the inner city teen pregnancy it is apples and oranges because of the religious claim although in my opinion both are heinous. you can not claim religious freedom on this issue but i am sure the ACLU will try that to.

remember this is the group that argues that convicted felons should have every amenity in a jail cell that they would get at a 3 or 4 star hotel and work less hours a week than you and i. they also argue that the criminals rights is far more important than those of the victim, and they argue repeatedly for abortion on demand, and oh yeah they believe that parental notification is evil as parents should have no rights. i think that about sums up the ACLU.

'Anonymous* | 8:21 a.m. Apr. 21, 2008
Here's my question....If the FLDS members aren't allowing anything illegal to go on at their communities, such as plural marriage, or child brides, or abuse of any kind....why are they so secretive and reclusive? Why do they live in remote areas where the rest of the world can't see them?'

My thinking is, because they don't want to? Just because it seems like the rest of the USA wants to be a reality TV star doesn't mean these people do. I don't either, does that mean my child should be taken from me too?

This is the core issue. People are insecure what others might teach their children. They might teach principles straight out of the Bible. We can't have this, this is the new revolution against religion. Makes the sexual revolution look like nothing.

The De-programming has commenced, everyone will think and act the same, no exceptions. Just because
the Raid was predicated upon a false phone call, does not matter. We will change the story to suit our agenda.

And where are the patriarchs of this particular cult hiding?

Don't forget about the Lost Boys of Colorado City. These young boys (12-15 years of age) are abandoned by these same "mothers" and left homeless on the street corners of neighboring communities.

For all of you that are crying out about Rights under the Constitution, please point out where in the Rights it states that you are permitted to commit crimes for that religion? Are you permitted to withhold insulin from a diabetic child? Nope. In those cases appropriate murder charges have been filed. Are you permitted to place your child on an altar, sacrificing him to God? Nope. This is no different. You may not abandon your minor son because he is a threat to the men of the community. You may not FORCIBLY marry your daughter the church authorities have demanded it after you, as a mother, notifies those authorities that she has reached puberty. You may not hold people against their will so that they may not leave. 6 Women are KNOWN to have requested a safe house refusing to go to the compound. You may not commit welfare fraud because "bleeding the beast" and "lying for the Lord" are considered holy and sacred.
How unfortunate the people of the Church not following the authorities and show their is a difference between the two groups. One is willing to commit crimes (flds) the other not (LDS.)

i think we could solve this by giving the children back to the parents and get rid of all the men living there and stop giving them welfare to support them-

The State of Texas has not produced any young girls (14 and younger) who are pregnant. In fact, during the trial the youngest women with a child was 17. Until the State of Texas produces substantative evidence that these people broke the law, I will remain convinced that this sharade is a thinley vailed religious persecution.

Lets see here if I am reading this right
they are looking to find a way to get there kids back. Here is a tip for you

1. submit DNA
2. give CPS & State your full name including maiden
and married name
3. give state the name of the biological father
4. have such biological fathers DNA sample
5. give the state the correct ages and birthdates of all your children so birth records can be made
and filed with the state

When that is complete unless they have a 13 year old knocked up daughter give them there kids back
but not until all DNA as come back that links parentage

Both parents are responsible for the situation they raise their kids in. The FLDS moms would not be the first victims of abuse too terrified of their abusers to fully protect their children. What adults choose to do and what they subject their children to are two different issues.

I think it's appropriate that TX try to intervene even though I have no confidence that in the short or medium term the state will have anything better to offer than life at the ranch. I also think it is reasonable for the ACLU to weigh in on religious liberty grounds. At a bare minimum, someone like the ACLU can help lawyers get on the ball to file motions trying to keep the nursing moms from getting separated from their kids or getting some clear conditions articulated.

Hopefully the lawyers, the court and CPS can reward people who tell the truth and whose stories check out. My heart goes out to all the children who do not know anything different. I am praying for courage for them and for wisdom on the parts of everyone trying to do what they think is best.

Thank you Talisyn.... They live secret and secluded lives because they choose to and because that is their CONSTITUTIONAL right.
Right now I am searching for this petition to sign. This is such a violation. If you know anything about these people then you know that they are hard working, industrious, family oriented, caring people. They choose to live a life away from you all. Does that bother you??? They do not want the influences of this (the outside) world. And all Texas authorities have done now is to completely validate their beliefs. Look what the outside world has done to them. Look what government and 'authority' has done to them.
Are their bad apples? No doubt. Who will cast the first stone here? How many children our born of minor females and older men in your community? How many of these cases has your DA prosecuted?
I do not believe that polygamy is sane! Nor do I condone an adult man marrying a child. But is that what this is about? NO!!! If it was then we would see the arrest of an ADULT MAN and a subsequent prosecution. Where is the man? Where is the victim?

To everybody finding the State of Texas abusing children by ripping babes from their mother's arms, lets organize and do something about it. What can we do? Any ideas? We can't just sit and watch leaving our little comments here and not be moved to action. I am willing to travel to Texas or Washington D.C. or whatever it takes, poor little babes! Couldn't imagine someone forcing my baby out of my arms. Let's do something! Now!

Let's allow the states to catalog everyone's DNA. I'm sure they will do a perfect job.

SueM- Here is a tip for you.. imagine this; An adult who used to live down the street from you calls CPS and states they were abused. State troopers now show up and break into your home, search it completely and take your children into 'protective' custody. They then tell you that you must prove who fathered each of your children and where that man is. Oh and you don't get your kids back until he submits his DNA as well. They do this to every kid in your neighborhood, your inlaws, cousins, aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters. EVERYBODY. Not an individual.....EVERYONE that you know and care about. Everyone that is religiously associated with you loses their children. Now they want you to promise that you won't teach your children your religious beliefs or you won't see them again.
At what point would you and your family and your community go on the offensive? Texas has done this all wrong and at some point these people will have had enough.
They have been more patient then I could have been. I doubt I could stand by for an hour while somebody took my child unduly!

I am willing to cast the first stone! There is no constitutional right to sacrifice a child behind the shirt of "religious freedom." There is no right to abandon young boys, with shunning BY THE COMMUNITY, because of religious freedom. There is no right to commit incest because of religious rights, also permitted by the community. There is no right to FORCE marriage because of religious right, also permitted by the community. There is no right to hold women AGAINST their will because of the religious right of others while the remainder of the community sits idly by. There is no right to defraud the government because of religious right.

This is not an issue regarding polygamy which should be decided on the state not federal level, but about clear cut abuse while pretending religious belief.

I, too, would be willing to travel to Texas for a protest or some other action, to show support for the rule of law and the Constitution. I have looked for anyone organizing such a thing, but everyone's afraid. If you dare speak negatively of the State's actions of removing infants from their mother's breasts, it must mean you're okay with child rape. Divide and conquer is the name of the game, and the State is doing an incredible job.

"It's all about the children" IMO doesn't pass the straight-face test. I believe Texas is fishing for info to justify legal action against the parents and permanent removal of the children, whom authorities believe are "endangered" by exposure to weird ideas.

If this really is "all about the children," the DNA testing will include screening for fumarase deficiency carriers, which would provide vital information necessary to prevent the conception of tragically handicapped kids in this group.

On the other hand, if it's really "all about stomping out the religion," nobody will really care about preventing birth defects.

I think DNA is a good idea. Ancestry.com does it to find out where people come from. So perhaps everyone should find out a bit more about themselves and do this. This is also good for investigations into crime. Including criminals like FLDS.

The only beneficiaries of the DNA testing will be the DNA test labs. The FLDS families are so intertwined that the labs will clean up because of the repeat testing that they will have to do to begin to sort out who is even somewhat related to whom. The labs will resort to ever more costly methods and the best that they will be able to do is to sort everyone into at best four or five clan groups. They will not be able to match individual children to parents.

What is the most disgusting fact of all is that the almight patriarchs are nowhere to be found.

And the way the women in the TV interviews cover for them all - What a sad, sad life!

Hopefully at some point we can all focus on the children. Since the state has hidden them away, we're left with our imagination and speculating how children might react to forced removal from their parents. I suspect that for the majority of the kids this will be the most traumatic and defining experience in their lives. At some point the news media needs to focus on the emotional state of these children. The public has a right to know.

The cycle had to be broken in order for the abuse to stop. I would rather see nursing babies taken away from their mothers rather than see them "spiritually married" and raped at 14 or even 16 years old or worse yet, lets not forget about the young men who are tossed out because they happen to be a boy and they are not wanted anymore. You do the math,1 man many wives, lots of boys, most have to go) Have you heard, this is what they do a over and over again!!!!!! The cycle had to be broken!!!

They will never get their children back. Once a person is accused of sexual child abuse that family is torn apart possibly forever. All CPS has to do is cry sex abuse and no trial to prove innocence or guilt - you are guilty because CPS says you are but no charges are ever filed. That's because they know you are innocent but they are out to keep your kids no matter what. If you are accused of physical abused or neglect these too can be turned into sex abuse. The reason because you have done everything that was court ordered and they still want your kids.

There is no reason to test for Fumerase Deficiency carriers especially when incest is still prophetically sanctioned.* They know their genealogy and they know that if they come out of a particular line, they are carriers. Heck, my 15 year old was taught about recessive genes in biology class. They are mormons and do practice genealogy, even if they aren't LDS.

*Warren Jeffs, their prophet is in jail for accomplice to child rape and INCEST. This is not about fishing, but pervasive communally sanctioned abuse, neglect and abandonment, incest, and other crimes.

I think states should have the right to decide how marriage is defined. I don't see that as the issue here. This is about communally accepted child abuse, communally accepted incest, communally accepted child rape, the communally accepted holding of women against their will (six women opted NOT to return to the compound which does suggest that other women's complaints have merit), communally accepted abandonment of children (lost boys), and communally accepted welfare fraud (bleeding the beast.)

Had Warren Jeffs only obeyed Rulon Jeffs when he directed that no underage marriages take place any longer, this situation would not have occurred. Warren Jeffs would also not be behind bars had he obeyed his own Prophet and father.

I am torn over this case. I deplore child abuse, and I am glad the FLDS practices are being taken to the woodshed...but I do feel compassion for the FLDS because I believe they have been so seriously deceived; and not unlike so many other religious groups, their minds believe that they are doing God’s will.

I am also distraught over hearing that nursing babies will now be taken from their mothers. No one has ever provided a valid argument that these infants are in immediate danger and must be removed now before all the legal cases have been heard. I nursed 3 children, and none of them would accept a bottle. Hormones are raging and emotional bonds between a nursing mother and infant are extraordinarily strong. Having been a nursing mom myself and in the clear absence of any immediate risk to the infants, I think this is an example of government abuse in the worst way and it should have been addressed. CPS, the court and the lawyers for the infants who are still nursing, should have been able to mediate this issue.