Why isn't the LDS church helping these families? Polygamy is practiced around the world and most if not all of our current church leaders are the descendent's of polygamy. None of us think that 14 year old girls should be married but that used to be common as well.

Even though the LDS church no longer practices Polygamy it is for purely political reasons and the doctrine is that there will be polygamy in the next life. So the failure of the LDS church to stand up and offer foster homes and legal assistance is purely to position Mitt Romney for future political positions.

THIS FLDS CUSTODY CASE IS BASED ON:
(:) [POLYGAMY "SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT"] AS A FALLACY," AND
(:) [RELIGIOUS FREEDOM "SLIPPERY-SLOPE"] ARGUMENT AS FALLACY.

FIND THE DEFINITION OF (48) OR MORE TYPES OF FALLACIES. (WITH OR WITHOUT A PRIORI PROBABILITY)

SIGNED: RECKIPS

Split them up, cast their children to the winds. Force the parents to drive hundreds of miles to see them, force them to get a job they cannot keep if they visit them, but if they don’t visit them, they cannot get them back. If they lose their job, they cannot them back. Hold the parents to unstated and “evolving” requirements; force them into poverty. Take away their bibles, arrest their prophet. No cost is too great, no legal action too farcical. No constitution or common decency can stop Texas justice.

The day these parents permanently lose their kids, having done nothing wrong personally other than reside at the YFZ ranch, if that day comes, will be a dark day for this country.

the plan of the cps is starting to unravel. you can see the attitude of the cps from the answers given in court. when service plans are vague then they are impossible to be complied with. i agree with the post above the LDS church needs to get involved in this. they help everybody and their dog when problems come up. but these poor people are left to the mad dogs of texas. having to travel all over the state of texas to see their kids is also a burden that makes it impossible to comblie. taking of the BofM from the boys because it has a picture of warren jeffs is a bad sign. take the picture, leave the book.

The marriage of 14 year old was not common, unless you are considering cave people from thousands of years ago. You might want to look up the ages of Joseph Smith, Emma Hale, Brigham Young and others at marriage to clear that misinformation. I have been doing genealogy for some time now and the records I have looked at from over 150 years ago have yet to show ANY 14 or even 15 year olds as married.

The issue has nothing to do with Romney. The only reason the LDS church and other churches should be involved is because the Book of Mormon was removed from children. Had it been a Koran, Bible, or even Watchtower there would have been a national uproar.

Agnostic mother of 3

As far as LDS doctrine is concerned, the FLDS are apostates. Period. The LDS Church isn't and shouldn't be responsible for what they do after they leave the church. Most of these people have never seen the inside of an LDS chapel.

It's the duty of everyone to stand up for the oppressed. What kind of political motive does the Catholic or Baptist churches have for not helping their fellow Christians? Come on!

These people are as LDS as Lutherans are Catholics.

Dear Seattle LDS Mom,
With due respect for your personal opinion, you are more than a little shortsighted. First, you presume that the LDS are doing nothing to help. On a local level, I am certain that there are more than a few offers to assist where possible. On an administrative level, the church's position is clear. We sustain the law of the land. Polygamy is illegal. If, at some point that changes, the LDS position will follow apprepriately. Why do you seek to direct the affairs of the church in general which are the stewardship of the First Presidency?

where are the so called wonderful fathers of these children?

Most of the mothers have been thrown into the light of day, but most of the fathers are no where to be found... (except Warren Jeffs, and we all know where he is, and a few other fathers we've seen or heard from).

What kind of a family unit is that... MOM is the one in court, being on public display, and being told what 'she' must do to get 'her' children back....Not what THEY must do to get THEIR children back...

This should tell us something about the situation there on the ranch.

WHERE ARE THE 'FATHERS'?

further more... there are those who won't even admit which children are theres.

How these people claim to be law abiding citizens is beyond me.

Where is the support for the FLDS? Texas CPS is far beyond their jurisdiction. This story must touch a tender note with all mothers. Give the children back and do it quickly.

The greatest good that may come from this debacle is that the public may have their eyes opened to the abuse that goes on stemming from the power "we" have given to CPS. This is not just a Texas problem, though I feel like it makes the problems in Utah seem small by comparison. In the name of protection, CPS is allowed carte blanche for doing damage to people and causing mental stress at least as great as any they are trying to repair. The "innocent" are assumed to heal after they finally pay enough money in attorney fees and suffer emotional trauma, and they catch a few abusers along the way, actually saving some children, so they are forgiven for the wrongs they do. There is nobody protecting good parents accused of neglect or worse by "well-meaning neighbors".

People feel it is their duty to report everything they see as different from their own view of parenting and then the parents are guilty until they can prove their innocence (assuming they have the money, language and emotional stamina for it). The well-meaning reporters ignorantly assume that "professionals" will investigate fairly. Unfortunately this is not always the case.

Removal of the Quran from a terrorist gets a Presidential apology. Removal of the Book of Mormon get you Nothing.
LDS wake up!!! your next.

Where is the leader of the YFZ Ranch, Merrill Jessop, hiding? Along with most of the other fathers of these 450+ kids.

As always, they've left their women to do all of the work in taking care of the kids, while the men are off playing (hiding)?

Go texas. Somewhere before these young girls thought it would be acceptable to become the sex slaves of muc older relatives, a lot more than simply residing at the ranch had to have gone wrong.
A lot more went wrong after that. These people have had their own individuality denied them, and they don't yet even know it.

There is a lot of wonderful news here. The state of Texas is going to make sure that the parents have proper parenting classes and vocational skills and provide safe environments to take care of their children properly before allowing them to be back with their parents. My guess is there are tens of thousands of children accross the state who could really benefit from this type of program. Wouldn't it be great if the state could just go neighborhood by neighborhood and help all of the unfortunate children being brought up in poor envronments with uncaring parents? I can't wait to see who will be next to receive such benevolence. Go Texas!!

To prove parentage, one only needs a mother. In our current society, many children only have a mother. Why should FLDS be held to a different standard, even if it wets your appetite for gossip. Since no crimes have been committed or even alleged, why should the men, any of them be forced a DNA test? My attorney husband suggests that not submitting is just VERY GOOD counsel.

My 16 year old son has a birth defect. I have been begging the school for specialized training so that he can be a productive member of society, but they think he is too bright based on his I.Q. score though he functions 40 points below the test. Perhaps if I converted to the FLDS my son would actually get the training he needs.

From the repeated spamming of Joel=Berklee=Eric, it appears that at least one FLDS father is holed up with his computer surfing the web, rather than being with his wives in the court hearings.

Just give the kids back, with no questions asked, no conditions met, just give the kids back so I can continue to abuse them without Texas or anybody else interferring.

I thought out of five judges that at least one would have the guts and compassion to return the children to the parents.
What a bunch idiots that set on the bench hearing the cases.
These people are treat like cattle their rights have been taken from them.
Please RETURN THE CHILDREN TO THEIR PARENTS

California Supreme Court rules that freedom to choose marriage partners is guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment. Their ruling is appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court and following their Lawrence ruling it supports California and polygamy ultimately becomes a Constitutional right--which it was in the first place (for over one hundred years before Reynolds).

Finally in this country burning witches is abolished, slavery is abolished, people can choose to associate with whom they wish and religious freedom really is a Constitutional right.

Or, we can continue the police state mentality that Texas has embraced in the name of Baptist imperialism--I'm sure orthodox Mormons wonder if they will ever get to sit at the front of the bus with Rosa Parks?

I agree with the earlier post--WHERE IS THE MIGHTY AND OH SO WISE MERRILL JESSOP?? Why would he choose to be a coward and hide? Why would he neither claim nor fight for his children? Regardless of whether you believe that CPS should return the children to their mothers immediately or not--can anyone with half a brain actually think that God is leading this awful excuse for a father?? His only interest is in saving his own hide, while his wives and many children fend for themselves. Pathetic.

If the father is a child abuser, CPS and the courts have an obligation to determine who the father of each child is to ensure that no child is returned to a home where an abuser is present.

Tell your attorney husband that protecting the children from abuse is paremount to worrying about whether a father will incriminate himself by being identified as the father of a child.

More and more, the FDLS, in the guise of neutral observers, are showing their true nature.

Perhaps you can actually focus on the issues at hand, rather than making them up as you go along. The only "sex slaves" that I see in the news are related to non-flds men. CPS has not suggested any crimes even closely approximating what you suggest. If you understood LDS history you would know that LDS were persecuted not for polygamy but because LDS were self-sustaining and those in MO. were expecting to make the big bucks off the mass of new people. When that didn't happen, the MO. people got mad, even hateful. The FLDS went to TX, then also instead of using local contractors, used themselves as labor. They also didn't purchase locally but purchased an hours drive away. Despite the claim of abuse, we are looking into their finances. Yup, it's all about the money ....again.

Agnostic mother of 3

to Seattle LDS (1st post here):
It's unclear why people keep talking about polygamy. This really has very little to do with that. The kids weren't taken because the men had multiple wives. The kids were taken because they were trapped behind a huge wall with a watchtower, and reports of child abuse were received. Even if you all had just one wife each, CPS would have come in - simply because you walled yourself in. Join the real world, and you'd probably be left alone.

Reply off of WHERE IS MERRILL 'S POST, 7:24am

I am sure most of the posters here have read or heard what kind of sorry excuse for a dad Merrill Jessop is. If he was able to, beat and waterboard the Texas goverment people..like he could his own children and get by with it...he wouldnt be in hiding. Hes taking the cowards way out.
IF..these FLDS members are so concerned about the children...why in the heck are there 100 of the FLDS children in Texas CPS custody without parents ?? These FLDS people know who these kids belong to, but refuse to step forward and say, " that little girl/boy belongs to...so and so".
WE LOVE OUR CHILDREN...WE NEED OUR CHILDREN BACK...that is all but, 100 of them.

the fathers aren't hiding because of polygamy, since only one wife is legally married. There's no law against getting a bunch of women pregnant - after all it happens in the inner-city a lot. It's stupid, but not illegal.
The fathers are hiding for some other reason, and it may be even worse than we think. If those kids can be convinced to discuss it, many men may be going to jail. (We'll just have to track them down in their red cadillacs)

Odd, isn't it that despite your accusation based on Carolyn's words, Betty Jessop (left FLDS with mother at age 13) returned when she was 18 years two days. How do you reconcile that after 5 years in the real world with real choices and a chance to understand abuse, she returned to the FLDS? She is the daughter of Merrill Jessop and would have witnessed such allegations. How do you reconcile that no charges were brought up against him only allegations by Carolyn without action by the state?

I find it equally amusing that so many claim the woman aren't allowed to "speak", yet now that the woman are speaking out, you are claiming the men are "cowards" for not speaking. What a lose/lose situation for the FLDS yet you likely will not see the obvious contradiction.

It seems that the FLDS are being trapped by their own lies.

Warren Jeffs handpicked the families who moved to the YFZ Ranch. The 3 to 1 disparity in the ratio of 14-17 girls to boys is an indication that either some of boys were left behind, or some of the girls came from families not living at the ranch.

That the FLDS practice polygamy is a fact, although they have a tortured rationale for why they aren't breaking the law, through "spiritual" marriages, and why performing forced underaged marriages is neither illegal nor immoral.

The FLDS are doing everything they can to hide the identities of the parents of some of the children, because they know that some of them have been involved in forced underaged girls being married and raped, and that revealing the identities of the fathers will provide the authorities with the names of the abusers.

Judges would be negligent to allow any child to be returned to their family before ensuring that the father isn't an abuser.

I too feel sorry for the FLDS men - they have lost half of their wives. Come on people. When they did the raid they claimed they took 53 girls between the ages of 12 - 18 and of those 31 were pregnant. This isn't about polygamy, this is about young girls being expected to "spiritually marry" a man and start having sex once they go thru puberty. Texas hasn't handled it the best but they are trying to put a stop to the abuse.

Don't even get me started about how many of these young girls are on welfare because they are not legally married.

"having to travel all over the state of texas to see their kids is also a burden that makes it impossible to comblie."

The mothers should charge the government for travel expenses and time in travel status.

"taking of the BofM from the boys because it has a picture of warren jeffs is a bad sign. take the picture, leave the book."

Take neither the book or the picture. And sue the state for violating the constitutional right of freedom of worship.

The FLDS men are twisted in their thinking. They think it is just fine to have sex with underage girls. They will argue this point, and that it is their "God given right" to do with as they will with as many women as they please. The FLDS men like Warren Jeffs are not mentally all together. Immoral behavior is a big part of their culture. They see no wrong whatsoever in what they do with women. I would like just one FLDS man, to take a lie detector test who actually believes God told him to be a polygamist. I bet we would all see nothing but lies on their test results.

"WHERE ARE THE 'FATHERS'?"

They're on the job working. How else are the families supposed to be supported?

I dont care how you do it..or what it takes
YOU get those children back !! Otherwise, we'll go bankrupted and have to shut the YFZ prison down !!

OK folks!!Here is the point of this all.We are all adults and need to act as such.This is not about the LDS,FLDS,Baptist,Catholic,Pentecostal or any one specific religion.These people practice their religion of choice which is their God given and constitutional right.This isn't a squabble over whether one religion should or will help another.This violation of many of their rights could and will affect us all soon.We need to stop bashing the LDS church because they are their own religion.This is not a church bashing party.It is however a major violation of these peoples rights.I know no one out there would want your children taken because of your choice of religion.It has boiled down to this.Put yourselves in their shoes.This was mans actions and no wrong has been proven except what has happened to this community.Stop calling it a compound or sect.These terms will apply to your organizations one day soon.Wake up and focus on the issue.The abuse has been from the CPS and other authorities in this case not the parents.

Hey, Texas Governor Rick Perry! Is Texas "The" child stealing state now? - Stop embarrassing America in front of the world! Shut down your FASCIST CPS agency and return the children to their mothers.

when i read the book escape, i remember that betty was the oldest of the children, had more years to be brainwashed, was the fathers pet, would expect to be given to a man with money and glad to get a young, beautiful wife. it may take her years before she wakes up to what she has done. i also read that her mother is in contact with her by phone.
if an adult wants to be a mans concubine, she can.

"Tell your attorney husband that protecting the children from abuse is paramount to worrying about whether a father will incriminate himself by being identified as the father of a child."

In a court of law, no one is required to testify against himself or incriminate himself. Should be the case in Texas Kangaroo Courts as well.

While you claim that Betty was a baby when the abused OLDER kids and would have been a witness to abuse of the younger children had that been truth. You also ignore that there was 5 years to relearn belief which is more than adequate time especially considering her age. I repeat this since it seems MANY choose to ignore that she is only one of MANY that have returned. Look at Fawn Holms who also returned...and the list goes on but you still ignore it. Instead wanting to believe that most need an "escape." It sounds so much more exciting that way.
You wonder why they spoke as they did, but I don't wonder. They were terrified that the wrong statement might guarantee permanent loss of custody. You maintain that the woman were all "told" what to say yet then also claim the men vanished. Then who exactly is "telling" these women what to do. Again, you own words prove illogical.
You speak about programming/brainwashing, but forget that the women are doing the raising and programming of the next generation.
Why are 100 children not claimed? Because CPS is slow and haven't caught up.
Agnostic mother of 3.

Reality check for you: Currently, the FLDS fathers are not supporting their families, or at least not their children in Texas, due to the fact that, I along with other taxpaying Texans, are actually working to support THEIR choice to have dozens of children. It's not fair on any front, but that's the current reality. If my husband were in their shoes, he would find the time to make it into court to fight for his family--as would any decent father--period.

Answer to WRZ 9:22am
The FLDS could ask the government to deduct the travel expenses from money owed back to the tax payers (US) for the FLDS's welfare fraud...

Freddie 9:30am
Your answer and question sounds reasonable...seeing that, I'm sure their welfare has come to a halt.

Does anyone know how many wives and kids Warren Jeffs has?

How many wives and kids does Merril Jessop have?

And how many of those are welfare recipients?

Reality check for YOU: The FLDS are not on welfare. Research before you spout off whatever you hear.

All of you who say that these children should be returned to the YFZ ranch, I dare you to take you own 14 year old daughter and send her there. If you would not then rethink your opinion.

Re: Seattle LDS Mom | 12:55 a.m. May 20, 2008

I agree that the LDS church should be helping in some way. We all know that the LDS church has denounced polygamy 100 years ago, bla, bla, bla, but, they have the more in common with these people than anybody else in the world. The LDS church helps a lot of other people regardless of their religion, so why not the FLDS? Could the LDS church be persecuting the FLDS for their beliefs??? Sounds like it to me. These kids need a place to go, a mormon foster family seems like a no brainer.

I MEANT that we Texas taxpayers are currently paying for the state to take care of all of these children, not that they were on welfare before. I have no idea whether they were or were not on welfare. I realize that this was the state's choice, I was merely pointing out that--be it by welfare or by CPS custody, I don't relish the idea of supporting Merrill Jessop's and Warren Jeff's who-knows-how-many children! Warren Jeff's decision to send these folks to Texas has brought his followers nothing but dispair--some Zion that is! At this rate, they'll be "yearning" for quite some time...

"These scriptures speak about eternal marriage, and to not only accept the docterine, but understand that it must be gone into with proper authority. What authority do these people (FLDS) claim? They rejected the prophet (Wilford Woodruff) Deciding they knew best."

Actually, from the FLDS point of view, it is the mainstream (mormon lite) church that lost priesthood authority when they chose to ignore devine revelation given through John Taylor and exchange the hardships that would be involved in living the new and everlasting covenant (not some temporary one) for statehood. Look at the history with an open mind, not one filtered through mormon lite teachings, and you'll find the truth is there. It's just not something that is comfortable for mainstream LDS (like me) to admit.

We've watched abuse of children, both girls and boys for generations here in Southern Utah... right under the noses of law enforcement who have chosen to ignore it. Utah's attorney general should be kicked out of office!

We are glad that Texas authorities are finally doing something about the rape of young girls, the brainwashing of women, and the abandonment of boys.

those of you that state that no one at YFZ ranch was on welfare - wake up.

They were being supported by monies sent in from out-of-state, and a lot of that is from welfare. Utah taxpayers were (are) paying for life at the ranch, and are now paying for the lawyers of the ranch. How do you think these people at YFZ survive? They have no jobs and create no outside products. They are leaches "bleeding the beast", which they are really good at. They are even proud of it.

You think they grew money on trees? Come on - wake up. Just because the welfare fraud was from out of state doesn't mean these people weren't living off of it. If I was from Utah, I'd be mad as hell to have to support these people.

"Reality check for YOU: The FLDS are not on welfare. Research before you spout off whatever you hear."

Gary Engels, the lead investigator during the Warren Jeffs case has said many times during news interviews that many of the FLDS women draw welfare benefits from the state, claiming to be single un-wed mothers. While they are not ALL on welfare, "many" are. They [FLDS] call it "Bleeding the Beast"

"In a court of law, no one is required to testify against himself or incriminate himself."

And, not surprisingly, the FLDS are all about lying to protect themselves from prosecution. That's why they perform "spiritual" marriages, so they can't be prosecuted for practicing polygamy

That's why they refuse to identify the parents of the children, because they know that some of them will end up being prosecuted for child abuse because they've actually participated in forced, underage marriages.

It's no surprise that protecting themselves from prosecution is far more important to them than their children are.

Pay no attention to that child abuser behind the curtain. Just return our kids and all will be forgotten, except for the windfall millions we’re expecting from all of the lawsuits we plan to file.

The FLDS feel no guilt when they violate the law and abuse their own children, but heaven help anyone else who violates their right to abuse their children as they see fit.

They have the audacity to criticize Carolyn Jessop for making a little money from a book about them, when they're already counting on making millions from their lawsuits.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.