What claptrap. LDS "researchers" find everything miraculous.

Re: Use Your Brains

Alright brainiac, exactly what research have you made to know that it WAS NOT a miracle?

This story was a myth, is a myth, and always has been a myth.
Somebody ready something. Please.

Frankly, I don't need to know the circumstances of Smith's operation to have a testimony. That came from the basics of reading the scriptures, praying and having those prayers answered.

People like 'Use Your Brains' have lost touch with what true testimony is.

a 'miracle' is an intervention of Divine motive.
If a prayer is answered in the form of a uniquely qualified medical person, one who is not to be found in the next town or camp...is that not open to interpretations of Divine intervention?
calculate your odds here and see if the extreme odds of this happening down the raod is not astronomicall high.
Get focussed...you can do it!

As opposed to those who find nothing to be miraculous. Must be tough being so smart. No surprise, no wonder, no sense of awe. And no tolerance for those of us who think there just might be something more to life than mere randomness and coincidence.

"Use your brains." Please do. Seems you're arguing in favor of the Church here, and somehow I doubt that was your goal. Yes, miraculous things can happen.

Richard - with all the names and dates matching up, doesn't that disprove your myth theory?

Why make every positive story you read a contest?

"Somebody ready something?" Is that a demonstration of your intellect? So we are supposted to believe you chanting "its a myth" over and over and disregard someone who has done research that is easily duplicated using records from one of the oldest med schools in the nation? Let me repeat, "Somebody ready something!" I will, especially since you asked please.

Some new fairytale's.

You doubters and nay-sayers really need to find something to do with your lame lives. If I don't believe something I don't spend my time reading about it or commenting about it. Live and let live. If you don't like it or believe it, that is YOUR CHOICE. Let the believers do as they may.

Why not... we know it is not true and have a burning desire to spread teh truth... just as you do.

The really interesting facet of the story is that the doctor recommended the amputation, but Lucy and her son objected.

In a scenario not unlike the modern Parker Jensen saga (where doctors and DCFS tried to force young Parker to have unnecessary chemotherapy to "save' his life at the expense of his permanent sterilization, Lucy Smith invoked her parental rights to direct that Joseph receive the medical care that was really best for him.

No parental rights, no leg; no leg, no functioning Joseph; no functioning Joseph, no Mormon Church in its current form. Every Mormon should know that there would be no Mormon Church but for parental rights. Too bad so many modern Mormons have forgotten this truth.

Skeptics are skilled at explaining every miracle in scripture. For them, every occurance can be reduced to "mere coincidence", and there is no room for anything but "coincidence."

As a believer, I see it as a miracle. The story really happened. But stories like this should never be the foundation for anyone's faith.

Sounds like proof to me.

Is it logical for "God" to intervene, just because you ask him/her/it to play favorites? There are many "miracles" in the universe that have nothing to do with religion or God.

I agree with Use Your Brains. It's a bunch of claptrap.

Try an experiment. Open two bank accounts. Deposit money in one weekly. Believe the other bank account will miraculously gain wealth.

Once, I loved believing in Santa. If believing makes you feel better, it does no harm.

Q. How do you spell gullible? A. M o r m o n

"What claptrap. LDS "researchers" find everything miraculous. "

"The Joseph Smith papers", in which this story (and many others) is being prepared for is overseen by a board of 3 NON LDS RESEARCHERS and 1 LDS researcher.

This proves once again, when verifed, documented recorded events are considered bogus by non-mormons that they still cannot accept the truth when it is staring them in the face. They call the blatant evidence "forcing it down our throats".

Nephi's words ring true, "the wicked taketh the truth to be hard, as it cutteth them to the very center".

"Try an experiment. Open two bank accounts. Deposit money in one weekly. Believe the other bank account will miraculously gain wealth."

I started putting 10% of my income into LDS churches bank account, and my checking account gets money every 2 weeks, I am happily married with two beautiful boys and I have never lost a job. Yes, I've tried this one, and it works. Have you?

"RE Amazing | 11:36 a.m. July 13, 2008
Why not... we know it is not true and have a burning desire to spread teh truth... just as you do."

You know that this story is false? Show me where the statements proving Dr. Smith's authenticity is broken?

Sounds to me that the evidence is overwhelming in favor of what "The Joseph Smith Papers" are claiming. If you KNOW, then show me how it is not true? Defend yourself.

Seems there are some folks in this blogosphere that can't wait for any story with "Mormon" in it to try and pounce to set everyone else straight.

I hope these people are confirmed atheists. Anyone else has no room to critique people of faith.

And for the self-styled agnostics, you can only be an agonsitic for a week... thereafter you become an advocate of your non-divine position and begin defending the "no-god" approach and therefore become an atheist.

For the others, this was an interesting well-written article postulating that Joseph's life indeed had some interesting "coincidences" surrounding it. It proves nothing, but, it is interesting. The proof came long ago.

I liked your provocative insights. By taking a risk and going against the medical advice of the day, Joseph Smith's parents are directly responsible for saving his leg.
Whether this was a miracle or not, I do not know, but the parents had to have some real faith to have made the choice they did to try something new.
Congratulations to them for apparently altering history by their courage and determination to save their son.

The story has always been told that God miraculously saved Joseph Smith's leg through some supernatural means.

Now we have an amateur historian who has suggested that this famous Dr. Nathan Smith was very competent and likely the only man in the U.S. at the time who could have saved Joseph's leg!

Well, I guess that takes the miracle away from God and gives it to Dr. Smith. So now that more research has been done, the "miracle" changes from God intervening to create a supernatural operation, to God intervening to place Dr. Nathan Smith so close in proximity to Joseph Smith.

How did God perform this miracle? According to the story, Dr Smith was delayed because of the typhoid fever epidemic that hit the area.

What’s this? God tortures thousands of people with typhoid fever just so he can delay this one-of-a-kind doctor so he can operate on Joseph Smith’s leg?

What kind of a God do you people believe in? In order to preserve your belief in miracles, you have to make him into an awfully twisted, unreliable, monster who would torture so many others just to save Joseph’s leg! What a freak your God is!

There will always be skeptics in this world of ours. They are usually people who have no faith, no courage and no love for God. I guess that just about wraps it up in a neat bow.

suzyk,

It takes courage to do what is right even though you don't have a god to tell you what to do. It is a coward who has to be told everything to do.

It takes courage to be a "skeptic" (which means a thinker -- look up the words' origins) and think for yourself. It takes only a fearful coward to follow along with the majority of LDS around her and simply "obey".

It takes courage to love people for who they are instead of being a coward and only loving those who agree with your religious beliefs (and then FAKING like you "love" others so that you can recruit them).

Yes, there are skeptics in the world, thank God (if there is one). Otherwise all the "courageous" believers would be flying planes into buildings, drinking poisonous koolaid, persecuting nonbelievers as in the Inquisition, engaging in Crusades, and showing their "courage" by harming and destroying their fellowman!

The only hope this planet and this human race has is SKEPTICS!

It looks like there is a lot of none MORMANS interested in US. Are they would not read our
Writings in the paper.

Skeptic, I am a recent LDS convert of 2 years. I once thought the way you do. I now know the truth.

I didn't believe in God, or Jesus Christ in fact I hated both of them. Attera Totus Sanctus, I was Black Metal.

But I can now say this, There is no blind obediance in this church, like I once thought. Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. … We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see, (clearly).

Austin-

God has so much foresight. Remember what happened when the 116 pages of BOM manuscript was lost? And remember when God told the church to stop practicing polygamy because He knew it would be bad for the church? And don't forget how God hid any archaelogical evidence of the Nephite civilization so we would have to rely on faith.

Still, I don't understand why Joseph needed his leg to translate the BOM. Stephen Hawking seems to have done pretty well in a wheelchair.

I don't ever remember hearing or reading that Joseph himself called the incident miraculous so why are we as members trying to make it a miracle after the fact. If Joseph himself had called the healing a matter of divine intervention then we would have a leg to stand on...(pun intended). That is the problem with Mormon culture is that we always try and paint prophets as superhuman instead of passing through the same human trials and mishaps as the rest of us.

I was a faithful Latter-day Saint for 30 years (In a Stake Presidency)! I once thought the way YOU do!

Uncertainty causes anxiety. Resolutions to anxiety are sometimes obvious and causes are easy to spot. When they are not, the cognitive apparatus compels you to find plausible resolutions in the form of a story. You resolve your existential anxiety when, for a remarkable moment, both the quiescent and arousal systems of your brain are simultaneously active, immersing you in a blend of fear and rapture, a state of intensely pleasurable agitation that some neurologists call the Eureka Response: a rush of ecstasy and awe. In a flash of insight, you are freed from grief and despair and the bonds of death! The insight strikes you with the force of revelation. Now you see clearly the absolute truth of things – that the spirits of the dead live on; that the Church is true. You feel that you have discovered a primal truth. It is more than idea, it is a belief that you have experienced in the deepest reaches of your mind.

But it is all just biology.

(see Newberg, “Why God Won’t Go Away” and Boyer, “Religion Explained.”)

I have studied this story. There is undeniable evidence that it happened and that Nathan Smith really was 100 years ahead of his time in his treatment of the disease known today as Omyelitis. Even if I didn't believe in miracles and divine providence then I would have to admit this was an amazing coincidence.

Whether you call it miraculous or fortuitous it doesn't matter,

the fact is the person who had the only medical expertese to save the leg was in the same area.

But people chasing him to get the gold plates, it seems necessary that have heathly strong legs.

God can heal the sick easy enough so typhoid plague is really no problem for him. so he "allows" nature to take it's course.

Needing a heathly leader to so he can re-establish his church in moderns times seems just a little more important.

But people will believe what they want. See what they want to see. And mock and ridicule who and what they can't understand.

As quite evident in the comments to this story.

So whether miraculous or fortuitous, people were where they were needed, so God great work could be carried out.

JOSEPH SMITH and NATHAN SMITH.what a similar SMITH.the name itself suggest a miracle.miracle that happens in fairy tale only.i get the impression that lds only trying to create a headline in newspaper so that everyday people will get something to debate.i am sure JOSEPH SMITH will have lots laughter in his after life.anyway its a good thing to pass the time.

Have many of you ever noticed that the "Church" does not teach the miracle of the "seagulls" anymore!
Why,
Because it didn't happen the way it was taught. Some gulls ate some crickets. End of the story.
Joseph had problem with his let and the Dr. took care of it. End of the story.
Go figure.

What percentage of the world is LDS? Less than 1%? For a tiny group of people to think they are the chosen ones, that their religion is the only "true church" and then to try and find "miracles" in so many inconsequential things, is so pompous and stupid. More people would believe all of you if you actually lived your lives better than you do: actually become better educated (BYU is a mediocre school), raise outstanding kids instead of mediocre ones, and have careers that make lasting contributions to the world (instead of selling real estate or Noni Juice). Actions speak much louder than words, especially "bearing testimonies" which is nothing more than spouting off an opinion.

Well, God does help me find my keys when I lose them. The story must be true.

I find you very judgemental so I guess you are not a Mormon. I heard that Mormons do not judge other people. Am I wrong?

Above all else, the Lord requires our faith! No one can please God or inherit eternal life without it! Signs follow real faith, signs never precede faith. The Pharisees demanded that Jesus show them a sign (proof)even after they witnessed His many miracles.They didn't get a sign or proof, instead then received condemnation. Sign seeking is a substitute for faith! Some critics of faith challenge us to "prove"(show us a sign) our faith with science. Science is often misused (junk science. Scientific conclusions are fleeting. All science will eventually prove to be at least incomplete with each new discovery. Science does not produce salvation, faith does! I personally have never met one person who was convinced that Jesus is the Messiah by seeing a Roman coin or a sword (or any other piece of archeological find) but I personally know hundreds if not thousands of people who are convinced that Jesus is the Messiah by reading the Book of Mormon! It isn't signs or proof that motivates us to anchor these things in our hearts, our faith does that! It is an eternally fatal mistake to substitute anything for faith. "unto such shall no sign be given."

Oh yeah, I remember this story from when I was a kid. Actually back then, the emphasis was on how the young, righteous Joseph Smith refused alcohol for the excruciating pain. Apparently, 7 yr old Joseph already knew God’s disapproval of using that evil corn liquor and through his obedience, he was rewarded with a healed leg. Isn’t that amazing? Do they still teach that or have they figured out that most 7 yr. olds don’t like the taste of alcohol?

Re: God? or Devil?

Ever consider that perhaps there were other reasons for the fevers, etc? You have no idea why or what happened prior to or following those events from a more broad perspective. Let's say for example that because of those fevers there was an intense amount of research done to find a cure which was the result of greater advances in medicine and it saved 1000's of lives????

It's obvious that you're smarter than God so maybe He should just have you make all of the decisions as to what happens and what doesn't

As one apostle once said "The adversary will always disagree and despise that which is truth and light"

Thanks for that comment. I'm also LDS and worried about the propagation of stories in the Church. I had a professor at BYU who was on the medical committee at UCLA for about 20 years, so he knew his medical stuff. He told us one about a trip when he stopped at Dartmouth medical school and actually read the doctors account of the Joseph Smith surgery. They would not let him make a copy of it though. (I forget why, you can call Dartmouth I guess and find out). Seemed like it was just another medical procedure. Nothing too miraculous. Another myth surrounding this story is the young Joseph not wanting to drink the EtOH because he knew it was bad for him. He was actually just scared out of his mind to take anything the doctors recommended because his brother Alvin died after taking a subscribed dose of mercury, which was a common practice in medicine in those days. (the person usually threw up whatever was making him sick, or died, which is what happened to Alvin). Otherwise, he would have been chuggin the stuff probably.

YEah, So what? It was fun to think of all those crickets getting gobbled up by those seagulls as I was being "manipulated" in primary. I don't care if they ate all of the crickets or not. Doesn't matter to me.

Sorry, That's why Jesus taught not to tempt God. You think he doesn't know what you're trying to pull. I mean, seriously man, God isn't too worried about money. BUT, I've got one for you, spend a month praying, reading the scriptures, throw in a fast sometime, and then the next month do nothing. See when you felt better and when life seemed to be a little more in persepective. Careful, you might have a life changing event and become a devout believer, maybe even in Joe Smith and dem Golden Plates, and his leg surgury bein a mirakle!!!

Seriously though, give it a shot. Can't hurt can it?

Sounds like someone is mad they didn't get into BYU and then couldn't launch a fabulous career with NONI or NU-Skin. Sorry. Yeah, I mean that's what we ALLL do, is drink our noni and sell real estate. HA. THanks for the laugh.

Sure, someone put together a well written article. I guess I'll put my indisputable proof together in a forum and use the word "CLAPTRAP" to verify how much I know about this.

sounds like you've got it all figured out. Way to go. But make sure you keep checking back and seeing what those mormons are still believing. Just can't quite let it go can ya?

Lucifer loves it when Jesus or his gospel is mocked. The greatest trick that Satan ever did was to convince people he doesn't exist.

Your comment is offensive and pathetic. It's sad that you feel the need to bash good people. What kind of life are you leading that makes you better? To say we are all mediocre or uneducated is a ridiculous generalization. You're a religious bigot and if you have such a difficult time living around Mormons it's a wonder that you don't move someplace else. Let's see your "lasting contribution". Yeah, I didn't think you had one.

I find the worthless banter and drivel that goes back and forth on this board entertaining. Even more funny is how some posters try to "substantiate" their point as valid by stating things such as (in a Stake Presidency!)...as if that will give added meaning to their position.

It's unfortunate that some LDS church members are so pious and feel a need to defend their beliefs when that defense is unnecessary by the very fact that the LDS church teaches the value of individual agency.

By the same token, it's unfortunate that some non-LDS folks and 'I-was-LDS-but-now-I-know-better' individuals have such a need to reassure themselves of their opinion towards the church that they lobby for everyone else to support them...almost like a majoiry will rule.

Bottom line is that whatever camp you put yourself into, you simply demonstrate intolerance of others when you argue, mock, or try to out-intellect other posters. You may be right. But last time I checked, not many people are converted (or whatever the opposite is) though an inconsequential reader response forum.

The things people say about Mormons. It's obvious that either they don't know any Mormons personally or that they prefer stereotypes and straw men to real human beings.

All I can think when I read comments that are so derogatory about Mormons is that the people who write them must be terrible neighbors.