Gays think if they get "equality" it will make the feelings of guilt, lack of the Spirit, emptiness, self-doubt (hate?) go away. But it's not acceptance or lack of acceptance that makes them feel that way - it's the sin itself.

This is just getting sad . . .

Bridger,

Homosexuality by itself does not ruin lives anymore than heterosexuality by itself ensures successful lives. Hateful attitudes ruin lives. As much as you would like to believe that you harbor no ill will toward gays, your opinion is hardly benign. Such thinking promotes discrimination and worse.

Think honestly for a minute: You did not choose your sexual orientation - it came to you as a natural phenomenon. Is it so hard to imagine that a gay person's sexual orientation also comes as a natural phenomenon (beyond the individual's choice)?

If you have witnessed a life ruined, consider the possible societal influences, including those stacked up against the unique individual.

As I have recently seperated myself from the church, I understand your thoughts and comments but also have had the opportunity to see the other side. Be careful when you use such strong words as "hate" or "evil". You might "disagree" in your beliefs when it comes to homosexuality, alcohol, etc. but that doesn't make it evil. You should be familiar with 11th article of faith that says we allow people to worship as they may. Your worship might not emcompass something that another deems permissable. Also, I don't doubt that you have seen lives ruined however many lives have been ruined in traditional marriages as well. I know you don't agree with the practice however people are free to live their life in their own fashion. I'm not asking you to accept it either, you can still be at odds with the practice just understand these individuals are friends and neighbors among you and might comes across as a hateful and demeaning letter to many. Just one man's opinion.

Dn why even print this letter? is this a joke or a real letter?

I'm so tired of reading latter after letter after letter about people spewing their fears, prejudices, hatreds towards any and all others, whether they be dems, repugs, gays, immigrants, hummeroids, ad nauseum. You people are pathetic. I daily read many other "newspapers" from around the world, but still there is this morbid curiosity that keeps me dropping in just to know that there are really more enlightened, tolerant, and insightful people in this world than are shown in this Desert News forum. And don't get me started on how many of my posts have been censored..if y'all actually get to read this one....

Mormons refuse to see they will pay for this view. This may be a price worth paying for them to make a moral stand. This stand will push a few more member off the fence and out of the church.

The church makes a moral stand on gay marriage. This is their right. I see a church that won't take a stand on torture. They talk about the value of life but they are silent on access to health care that life depends on.

It's like they can't bash a party that good for business even if they waffle on morality.

It is very sad that a person can't decide whether people who are different from him "deserve equal rights." What stupidity! Everyone "deserves" equal rights! Why don't these blockheads get it?

As Darin said above, homosexuality does not destroy lives. It is the prejudice, the bigotry, the unmitigated conceit of people like Bridger that ruins lives. No, Bridger, you have never seen being gay or lesbian ruin anyone's life. If you have seen anything, you have seen your own ignorance and that of people like you destroy lives that should have been beautiful existences.

Thank you to the writer for having the courage to say what is true. Homosexuality destroys the lives of many. These people are badly broken and living in denial. It doesn't have anything to do with how society accepts them. It has to do with the fact that it is an unhealthy and spiritually destructive practice.

It has happened throughout history. Any civilization that accepts homosexuality as normal and morally equal to heterosexuality hasn't much time left. I fear for our country.

It amazes me how many people continue, like the writer of this letter, to spew such ridiculous rheteroic. Sadness, tragedy, etc. exists in all of our lives, not just the gays. Why do people continue to single out gay people as miserable, just to support their bigoted ideas. Tragedy, infidelity, STD's, abuse, etc. exist everywhere, not just in the gay community. It all depends on the individual and the value they place on their own lives, the lives of their partners, their children, etc. It also depends on self-respect and the respect for others. The bottom line here is, how can anyone continue to expect gay men and women to pay taxes, tax revenue that supports straight families and their rights, and then tell those gay men and women that they can't have equal rights as you because you think their lives are a perversion. It's as plain and simple as that! It's wrong! It's bigoted! And it is time to stop this madness and discrimination once and for all. If you go by sadness and tragedy, than we need to outlaw marriage all together. How silly is that?!

It didn't ruin mine. I have a rich, full life. I wouldn't presume to tell you it's for you or anyone else, so what puts you in a position to tell me?

I have to agree with the other posters that this is getting well beyond the realm of pathetic.

Hi Sid, I agree with you. Over 50% of my postings don't appear. It's odd how use logic and reason is feared, but treated as though it were offensive.

Judgments and biases like Bridger's is what ruins lives.

What a hideously hateful letter.

Blind faith and narrow mindedness ruins lives.

What ruins lives is when a homosexual person faces people like this letter writer. YOU, Bridger Talbot are the reason so many gay people are heartbroken to the point of taking their own lives.
Shame on you! I hope you can live with the hatred burning inside you.
This letter and your bigotry make me sick!
THP

The letter from Bridget as well as those that support her and her viewpoint are right on. That was a good letter. It takes courage to write on a board like this and say what you feel because the hate and nastiness just gets so pervasive. Her view is correct as well. I have known people who practice homosexuality. I don't think I have ever known one who was happy, really deep down happy with themselves or their lives.

God will never conform to you. We are asked even invited strongly to "come unto Christ". He has no need of change and perfection, only we mortals have that.

Cat - I find your comment ironic. As an "out" gay man I am actually living a life that is free from denial - don't cha get it? And please don’t fret because I am anything but broken. My partner and I live happy and productive lives that contribute to our community, and we have absolutely no desire to change our lives for you or anyone else. I’m afraid Cat, that it is you who are broken and living in denial. PS - My partner and I have spent 24 wonderful years together and wish others could be as fortunate - like the 50% of LDS folks whose church-sanctioned "Temple Marriages" have failed miserably. Maybe we could teach them a thing or two about real love and commitment.

"The issue of same-sex marriage is not only a complex issue, but it is a passionate one for many. None of us can say, or begin to say, that based on our own research gays deserve or do not deserve equal rights. The issue is simply too large for any human to decide."

Bridger,
Actually the issue of same-sex marriage isn't really that complicated. I can say, as a fellow human and based on my own research of gays and the U.S. Constitution, that gays do deserve equal rights. This issue is not too large for me to decide.
Many Americans do not need to seek the council of old men to determine what is right or wrong. Each human has an inner voice that can tell them these things. You may have heard of the Golden Rule. We can apply this rule to this situation and do so in light of the U.S. Constitution and what I like to call the harm principle. Will allowing same-sex marriage harm me or my family? No. If I were to deny the right to same sex marriage would I be denying others something I hold dear? Yes.

The pro-homosexual lobby has honed their skills well. Anyone who is against their "lifestyle" is filled with hate and bigotry. Normal is "abnormal" and those who have a normal abhorrence of this perversion are the real perverts. Talk about calling day night and night day.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

This letter writer has never had to walk two steps in someone elses shoes.

I USED to be very unhappy, felt terrible guilt and was ready to kill myself. That was BEFORE I was able to accept what I am. That was back when I LET the LDS Church views rule my life.

Once I accepted myself and that I COULD NOT ever change (believe me, I tried!!) to what was expected and "normal", I have never felt guilty since. I am happy, successful and well adjusted.

I have seen Heterosexuals destroy lives through abuse, infidelity, and many other evils. And yet nobody denies them the rights that we all take for granted.

Please do some research before you begin spouting your hateful comments about gays. There are many very good researchers and a recent article on Scientific American describes 'bisexuality' all through the NATURAL world. In fact, studies suggest that societies that practice it are MORE PEACEFUL than those that do not. Think about that if you dare.

One could infer from this letter that the LDS Church promotes bigotry.

So we are enlightended if we think like you but otherwise not. Everyone should be treated fairly just not dummies that believe in God? Tolerance for everyone?

Instead of addressing the subject of whether the practice of homosexuality ruins lives, many posters tried to turn the subject into hate speech.

Darin chose to attack Bridger by saying, "your opinion is hardly benign. Such thinking promotes discrimination and worse."

Matt P. said that the letter "comes across as a hateful and demeaning letter to many".

Sid Vic wrote, "I'm so tired of reading latter after letter after letter about people spewing their fears, prejudices, hatreds towards any and all others".

Whatever wrote, "Mormons refuse to see they will pay for this view."

Agki wrote, "Why don't these blockheads get it?"

Jason wrote, "It amazes me how many people continue, like the writer of this letter, to spew such ridiculous rheteroic. "

Orion wrote, "Judgments and biases like Bridger's is what ruins lives."

Not one of those posters addressed the subject of the letter to the editor. Not one.

HumptyDumpty, you obviously haven't known very many homosexual people, or perhaps you just knew them in their "religiously guilty" phase. Have you checked back with any of them lately? Probably many are happy and free of their old hangups.

It is amazing how freeing it is to finally let go of the biases you were raised with and truly accept yourself. Letting go is the hard part. Being raised in the LDS culture, one gets burdened with so many guilts. If you simply breath in and breath out you end up feeling guilty. God, in my own personal view, does not want us to feel guilty all the time, but rather to learn and be joyous and joyful. Therefore, feeling guilty is also sinful. Sigh, so many sins, so little time to commit them all. :)

Mike Richards, you are wrong.

jjv said that as an "out" man, homosexuality hasn't ruined his life.

SLC resident says he has "a rich full life."

I'm not justifying hate on either side, but I don't think we should ignore the first-hand statements on this comment board.

I agree wrote: "Gays think if they get "equality" it will make the feelings of guilt, lack of the Spirit, emptiness, self-doubt (hate?) go away. But it's not acceptance or lack of acceptance that makes them feel that way - it's the sin itself."

No. It is not. I have been there. It is the shunning, judging and total lack of compassion that I received from the church members that caused pain. I had to remove myself from others that felt it was their right or responsibility to make my life miserable to find that God loves me and I am a good person. I am happy and content with the life that I have made for myself and hold my head up high.

Mike, did you read SLC Resident's post? He addressed the topic nicely.

Being Gay hasn't ruined my life either. It has been far more rich and varied than I ever could hvae hoped.

The writer of this letter could just as well have posted "Infidelity ruins lives" or "Incest ruins lives" or "Suicide ruins lives" and I can think of a number of others.

In my case, it could have ended up "Suicide ruins lives" which would have translated as "LDS Beliefs ruins life". Sorry but all of these are just too general.

Sometimes, Homosexuality DOES Ruin lives. Sometimes being LDS DOES ruin lives as well. In either instance being one can also Enrich one's life. You can take lemons and make lemonade or just pull a sour face. It is up to the individual.

Mike Richards,

Funny, I read the comments and I see that many, many people have addressed the subject of the letter. Darin addressed it. Matt P. addressed it. Agki addressed it. Jason addressed it. Orion addressed it.

Each of these posters that you singled out (and several more that you didn't) addressed, in one way or another, the fact that homosexuality itself isn't what ruins lives. It's the hatred, bigotry and ignorance directed toward homosexuals from people like you, Bridger, "I agree," Cats, Phantom Cat, humptydumpty and many, many others in these daily threads that ruins people's lives.

from Alexander Pope:

Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As, to be hated, needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.

You didnt address the subject of the letter either. You just reposted what we had already read.

You no Michael at some point people just get tired of beating their head against the same wall. There is nothing new in this letter, it has all been addressed many times over, if you and the letter writer do not get it yet then there is nothing that we can say are do that can help you. Having read these threads for far longer then I care to admit, I have seen people address your arguments over and over again. You and the letter writer are not interested in a discussion or finding any understanding between the two sides, so go ahead and tell yourself what ever will keep you warm at night, but the rest of us are tired of trying to reason with rocks.

I hope this letter and some of the comments here aren't fully indicative of the LDS view. Even though I haven't been active for decades, I, as a gay person love my LDS family and friends, they have always been inclusive, supporting and loving, and all of us are better for it.

A convicted rapist can marry, a convicted child molester can marry, a convicted murderer, you guessed it, can marry. But a gay couple can't.

Based on the concept of evil act leading to limited rights, when will all of those opposed to gay marriage be taking on those who sin against the ten commandments?

Why in the world would the DNew choose to print Mr. Talbot's mindless, indefensible garbage?

Also, WHAT IS IT with Mormons in Utah County? It's been my pleasure to associate the "saints" from other states and other nations, and they are no where near as clueless, self-righteous and mean-spirited as the folks in Happy Valley.

Is it something in the water?

My wife's decision to act on her homosexuality destroyed our marriage and has negatively affected the lives of our children well into their adulthood. So, yes, it can and does ruin lives, as I have seen firsthand.

Here is some information from a well respected Catholic web site:

"Homosexuals of both sexes remain fourteen times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals and 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully. Thirty years ago, this propensity toward suicide was attributed to social rejection, but the numbers have remained largely stable since then despite far greater public acceptance than existed in 1973. Study after study shows that male and female homosexuals have much higher rates of interpersonal maladjustment, depression, conduct disorder, childhood abuse (both sexual and violent), domestic violence, alcohol or drug abuse, anxiety, and dependency on psychiatric care than heterosexuals. Life expectancy of homosexual men was only forty-eight years before the AIDS virus came on the scene, and it is now down to thirty-eight. Only 2 percent of homosexual men live past age sixty-five."

Here's more evidence from that same Catholic web site:

"Male homosexuals are particularly prone to develop sexually transmitted diseases, in part because of the high degree of promiscuity displayed by male homosexuals. One study in San Francisco showed that 43 percent of male homosexuals had had more than 500 sexual partners. Seventy-nine percent of their sexual partners were strangers. Only 3 percent had had fewer than ten sexual partners. The nature of sodomy contributes to the problem among male homosexuals. The rectum is not designed for sex. It is very fragile. Indeed, its fragility and tendency to tear and bleed is one factor making anal sex such an efficient means of transmitting the AIDS and hepatitis viruses."

"The statistics speak for themselves: If homosexuals of either gender are finding satisfaction, why the search for sex with a disproportionately high number of strangers? In view of the evidence, homosexuals will not succeed at establishing exclusive relationships."

-----

There is much more, on that web site and on many others. Google "homosexuality negative aspects" and you see many, many studies that support the letter to the editor.

It's also a well known statistic/fact that married people live longer, so wouldn't legalizing gay marriage help to change your info for the better?? And what is the reason for Utah having such high suicide rates of young men and teh highest percentage of anti-depressant usage in the country?? Are there THAT many people in the closet here in Utah??

And I'm proud to say that NONE of your statistics, including life expectancy apply to me. I guess I'm in the 2% category.

So mike proves that catholics can be bigots as well. Good job!
The writer says "None of us can say, or begin to say, that based on our own research gays deserve or do not deserve equal rights."
I can say with no reservations that ALL HUMANS DESERVE EQUAL RIGHTS. I cannot however understand how anyone could think some people DONT deserve equal rights.

Mike Richards,
So? Regardless of how "well-respected" this "Catholic" website is and how valid their statistics are, would allowing gay people to marry make it worse?

I thought that the lyrics were: "There is beauty all around, when there's LOVE at home." Not when there's not homosexuals at home. Change your arguement from "homosexuality ruins families", to "homosexuality ruins Mormon families". But even that isn't true since I know several LDS families (I'd like to think that Mormon families differ from LDS families) that manage just fine with a homosexual family member.

Mfam | 9:15 a.m. July 16, 2008
"My wife's decision to act on her homosexuality destroyed our marriage and has negatively affected the lives of our children well into their adulthood. So, yes, it can and does ruin lives, as I have seen firsthand."
I disagree. Your wifes decision to pretend she wasnt gay and marry you had a negative effect on your life. I cant help but wonder why a gay woman would pretend to be straight, perhaps she was taught that being gay was an abomination at an early age and thought if she just tried harder, she could be straight. Tough break for you. Maybe we should just let the gays be gay and they will quit trying to pretend to be straight. If anyone should be able to see that it should be you.

I feel sorry for you that you had to experience ruination of you family due to your wife's decision. But I would like you to think about this - if your wife would have been allowed to live her true life without the hate expressed by society especially here in Utah - then you would not have ahd to experience that ruination.

Mike Richards,
I know this is going to go right over your head, but for the benefit of others reading this thread . . .

Homosexuality does not equal promiscuity. Legalizing gay marriage (i.e. promoting stable, long-term, monogamous relationships among gay people) would encourage, and ultimately lead to, LESS promiscuity in the long run.

I realize this doesn't make sense to you Mike; you'd have to be able to think rationally to get it.

Subject...so...boring...consciousness...waning...

Can ANYONE show me where gay marriage in ANY state or country on this planet where it is legal has been negativele affected in ANY way? Have divorce rates among hetero's sky rocketed? Have any been stuck off the planet? Have the heavens rained down fire?

All you people who scream that gay marriage is teh death of the traditional family need to pull your collective heads out, open your eyes and admit that the sky ISN'T falling.

You claim that 50% of temple marriages end in divorce (about even with the national average), but you are wrong. 50% of marriages in the church end in the divorce, including those married outside of the temple. Of course, there is still divorce in temple marriages, but it is a much lower rate.
On another note. I believe very firmly in every people having their civil rights. But unfortunately, marriage is not a right guaranteed by the government. If a homosexual (or any other person) were denied his/her right to free speech or any other right actually guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, I would fight to help that person.
I had a relative who left his wife and children to pursue his selfish, homosexual lifestyle. I have no problem accepting that he may have been born with a greater propensity to homosexuality, because we are all born with weaknesses that we need to overcome. It is hard, I know. But since, I was a teenager, I have really liked women. I chose to wait until marriage to act on that desire. Also, I agree that homosexuality is not the only thing that ruins lives. Any sin will ruin lives.

The information on that Catholic web site answers all of the questions that have been posted. Please read it.

Concerning same-sex marriage:

"Motives probably vary, depending on the activist. Many are seeking public approval of homosexuality. They want societal acceptance. Others may be seeking absolution for a guilty conscience. Some probably want society to say that what they are doing is morally right. But you don't have to be a theologian, nor even religious, to understand that any form of behavior that cuts a person's longevity in half and comes with a lengthy list of venereal diseases is simply not right. You don't have to be the pope to see that. A thoughtful atheist can discover easily a completely secular natural morality that says: This behavior kills people. People should live. But homosexual behavior kills homosexuals."

"The statistics make it very clear that homosexuals are not at peace with themselves. No one who is at peace seeks sex with hundreds of strangers. That is bizarre behavior. Something is dreadfully wrong with the psychology of people who seek random sex - a fact we see confirmed by their suicide, drug, and antisocial behavior statistics."